The issue up for discussion is whether the instrument training time for an Instrument Rating can be counted toward the instrument requirement for the Commercial Pilot certificate. The answers are maybe, it really come down to how it was logged.
The root issue is that the items listed as required training in accordance with 61.65 are not the same instrument training items listed in 61.129. So, during your instrument training if you did specifically what was contained in 61.65 it would not meet the requirements of 61.129. However if the CFII conducting your 61.65 instrument training also incorporates the items of 61.129 and documents it as such then the training for 61.65 for the instrument would also be meeting the requirements of 61.129 and thus the applicant could double-dip.
Below are the various legal interpretations that address this, we’ll get the answer to this pressing question as well as discuss the required CFI qualifications (CFII or not) for instrument instruction given to Private/Commercial Pilot certificate and Instrument Rating candidates, and what parts of the instrument experience for the instrument rating must be given by a CFII (as opposed flying with a regular CFI or safety pilot).
- Theriault (2010): Does an instrument rating meet the requirement §61.129(a)(3)(i) of 10 hours of instrument training for Commercial Pilot Certificate? It depends on what was done and how it was logged. (Unrelated, the legal interpretation also reiterates that an airplane on an IFR flight plan with the remark “VMC only” does not need to be IFR certified, see also FAA Order 8900.1, paragraph 5-439.)
- Theriault (2011): followup to Theriault (2010).
- Hartzell (2010): There is no exact equivalence between the training required for an instrument rating under §61.65 and the aeronautical experience requirements under §61.129, so there is no guarantee that an Instrument Rating satisfies all of the requirements of the 10 hours of instrument training needed for the Commercial Pilot Certificate, unless it is specifically marked as such. (However, it usually does at least partially, and often completely. Furthermore, examiners usually treat this issue fairly liberally.)
- Oord (2018): Simultaneous counting of instrument training for instrument rating and commercial pilot certificate is allowed, as long as it is clearly logged in a way that shows that the instrument training also met the commercial requirement of 61.129(a)(3).
- Grayson-2 (2010): Instrument Airplane rating needed on Flight Instructor certificate to conduct “instrument training” (towards a candidate’s Instrument Rating or Commercial Pilot certificate), but not needed for basic instrument maneuvers (3 hours) for Private Pilot training. Furthermore, category and class of aircraft must be on both the Commercial Pilot certificate as well as the Flight Instructor certificate, for an instructor to conduct “instrument training” in an aircraft.
- Kortokrax (2012): Reiterates Grayson-2 (2010) that a CFII providing “instrument training” must have category and class ratings as well as a corresponding (category-specific) instrument rating on her/his flight instructor certificate.
- Beard (2012): The rating requirements on a flight instructor certificate listed in Grayson-2 (2010) and Kortokrax (2012) apply to a CFII conducting “instrument training” in a flight simulator, FTD, or ATD, as well, because these devices simulate an aircraft.
- Jablecki (2016): In contrast to Grayson-2 (2010) valid for airplanes, an Instrument Helicopter rating is NOT required on a Flight Instructor certificate to give the five hours of instrument dual in a helicopter for the Commercial Pilot Helicopter certificate, because Section 61.129(c)(3)(i) only asks for “control and maneuvering of a helicopter solely by reference to instruments” (similarly to the phrasing for Private Pilot certificates, which can be given by non-CFIIs), not for “instrument training” (as is the case for Commercial Pilot Airplane certificates, 61.129(a)(3)(i)). Only “instrument training” requires an Instrument Rating on the Flight Instructor certificate, in the appropriate category (and class).
- Grayson-3 (2010): Explanations for how instrument training with an instructor must be done with a CFII (15 hours), and how much instrument flight can be done with a safety pilot (remaining 25 hours, for a total of 40 hours). Regular CFI can give the 3 hours of instrument time required for Private Pilot (is not considered “instrument training” for Instrument Rating/Commercial Pilot certificate, but rather only “basic instrument maneuvers” and “control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments”).
- Rohlfing (2016): The 3 hours of “control and maneuvering of an airplane solely by reference to instruments” – required by 14 CFR 61.109(a)(3) for the Private Pilot (Airplane) certificate which can be given by a CFI who is not a CFII – can be counted towards the total 40 hours of instrument time required for an instrument rating by 61.65(d)(2), provided that these three (or more) hours are not counted towards the 15 hours of “instrument training” specifically required to be given by a CFII with an instrument-airplane rating on his CFI certificate. (Side note: It is also possible to train for your Private Pilot certificate and Instrument Rating concurrently, provided the instrument training is given by a CFII.)
- Sun (2011): The 2-hour commercial daytime and nighttime dual cross-country flights required for the Commercial Pilot certificate can be conducted under IFR and can be double-counted towards the instrument requirements for the Commercial Pilot certificate at the discretion of the instructor.